tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9420699.post3164373912383008474..comments2024-03-22T22:23:19.609-04:00Comments on Courtenay Connections : Margaret Courtenay, wife of Theobald Grenville - A summary of who cannot be the parents of Margaret Courtenay, wife of Theobald GrenvilleUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9420699.post-3670465695701884962021-03-26T15:54:25.253-04:002021-03-26T15:54:25.253-04:00Hi, Is this correct? I am tracing my family ancest...Hi, Is this correct? I am tracing my family ancestry and verifying a family tree that I have that leads to me: Margaret de Bohun m. Sir Hugh de Courtenay; their child, Sir Edward Courtenay m. Emmeline Dauney; their child, Sir Hugh Courtenay m. Maude Beaumont; and their child, Margery Courtenay m. Sir Theobold Grenville; their child, Sir William Greenville m. Phillipa Bonville; their child, Thomas Grenville m. Elizabeth Gorges; their child, Sir Thomas Grenville, Knight of Bath m. Isabella Gilbert; their child, Sir Roger Grenville m. Margaret Whitleigh; their child, Amy Grenville m. John Drake. and so on. I can fill in more, but this would be great to verify if anyone has the information. Thanks!Aulls familyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05622462827639389098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9420699.post-50489265303099322422018-04-20T14:23:34.366-04:002018-04-20T14:23:34.366-04:00Hugh Courtenay, 2nd/10th Earl of Devon (b. 12 July...Hugh Courtenay, 2nd/10th Earl of Devon (b. 12 July 1303 – d. 2 May 1377) had only one wife, which was Margaret de Bohun (b. 3 April 1311 – d. 16 December 1391)!History Buffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14423295373515178320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9420699.post-83348383612896287322018-03-19T20:35:53.286-04:002018-03-19T20:35:53.286-04:00Hugh Courtenay, the 2nd Earl, with all those child...Hugh Courtenay, the 2nd Earl, with all those children by his various wives, could easily have had two daughters named Margaret, especially since that was the name of his eldest daughter, who would have been ready to be married off when a younger daughter came along and needed a name.John Schmeecklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13367234864721190344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9420699.post-27322395755221633212017-12-30T15:18:23.611-05:002017-12-30T15:18:23.611-05:00To comment on the summary that was posted by a Lou...To comment on the summary that was posted by a Louise Staley, I want to highlight her second response which reads:<br /><br />2. Hugh, 2nd earl of Devon Courtenay and his wife Margaret Bohun. Hugh and Margaret had 17 known children of which one was named Margaret who was their eldest daughter and probably born about 1326. This Margaret married John, Lord Cobham in 1332/33 and pre-deceased her husband, dying 2 Aug 1385. (C.P. III:344) So this Margaret cannot have also married Theobald Grenville or been the mother of John Grenville in about 1360.<br /><br />-Sir John Grenville was knighted in 1386 and most likely at the age of 21, since his father was also a knight. So, Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir Theobald Grenville II would have given birth to their son, John Grenville, no later than 1365. Several secondary sources including Sir William Pole, J. L. Vivian, and J. S. Roskell all mention that Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir Theobald Grenville II was the daughter of Hugh Courtenay, 10th Earl of Devon and Margaret de Bohun. Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir Theobald Grenville II was most likely born between 1347-1350 and married Sir Theobald Grenville II no later than 1365, in order for their son Sir John Grenville to be knighted at the age of 21 in 1386.<br /><br />The most plausible explanation for the confusion concerning Margaret Courtenay, wife of Theobald Grenville II, is that the Margaret Courtenay who married John, Lord Cobham in 1332/3 and predeceased her husband, dying 2 Aug 1385 was the eldest daughter named Margaret, and the Margaret who married Sir Theobald Grenville II was Margaret (the younger). Margaret, wife of Sir Theobald Grenville II was still the daughter of Hugh de Courtenay, 10th Earl of Devon, 2nd Lord Courtenay (b. 12 July 1303 - d. 2 May 1377) and his wife, Margaret de Bohun (b. 3 April 1311 - d. 16 Dec. 1391), but was one of their lesser known younger daughters. Hugh de Courtenay, 10th Earl of Devon and Margaret de Bohun had 17 known children. Name-sharing is more likely to occur in large families or where the pool of available names is restricted. Eamon Duffy’s study of the Devon parish of Morebath showed that it was common practice to give the same name to living siblings, citing examples as late as the early 16th century. In the 2012 article entitled “Living same-name siblings and English historical demography,” the author states, “Lawrence Stone famously asserted that, ‘During the middle ages and the sixteenth century, it had been common practice to give a new-born child the same first name as an elder sibling, especially if it was the traditional name for the head of the family. The habit lingered on into the first half of the eighteenth century.’” <br /><br />Margaret de Bohun (1311-1391) also had an older sister named Margaret de Bohun (1302-1304). So, it would not be unusual for Margaret de Bohun (1311-1391) to give a new-born child the same first name as the child’s elder sibling. In this case, Margaret Courtenay (born c. 1347-1350), wife of Sir Theobald Grenville II, was the younger sibling to Margaret Courtenay (born c. 1328), wife of John, Lord Cobham.<br /><br />This is the most logical placement in the Courtenay family tree for Margaret Courtenay, wife of Sir Theobald Grenville II.<br />History Buffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14423295373515178320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9420699.post-88584209670696753472017-04-15T15:01:58.428-04:002017-04-15T15:01:58.428-04:00Louise Staley stated: “She is also described in R...Louise Staley stated: “She is also described in Roskell™s History of Parliament as a sister of Edward Courtenay, iothe blindln earl of Devon and his wife Maud Camoys. This would also make her the sister of Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe."<br /><br />It would appear that others agree with Roskell's History of Parliament assertion that Margaret Courtenay, wife of Theobald Grenville II was a sister of both Edward Courtenay, the "Blind Earl," and Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe. <br /><br />From a recent discussion on soc.genealogy.medieval about Margaret Courtenay, wife of Theobald Grenville II, dated 29 Dec. 2016, we find:<br /><br />["I was one of those who worked with Louise and another wonderful genealogist, Sheila Yeo, on the early Grenville spouses, specifically Margaret Courtenay. I don't remember the conclusion being that she wasn't a Courtenay at all (why would later generations of Grenvilles have made her up?) - instead, it was a matter of it being difficult to place her within the Courtenay family. She most definitely was not a (legitimate) daughter of the 2nd Earl of Devon and Margaret de Bohun (granddaughter of Edward I), as some sources, including the HOP bio of her son Sir John Grenville (d. 1412), have it. Nor was it chronologically possible for her to have been the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (c.1360-1425), as other sources have it. Nor could she have been the daughter of Sir Hugh Courtenay (1327-1349), an original Knight of the Garter, the eldest son of the 2nd Earl of Devon, as she would have become an heiress after the death without issue of his only son Hugh, Lord Courtenay (c.1348-1374). <br /><br />Given that Sir John Grenville did become a leading retainer of Edward Courtenay, 3rd Earl of Devon (1357-1419), my own guess is that Sir John was the earl's nephew, and that Sir John's mother Margaret Grenville was elder sister to the 3rd Earl of Devon and Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe, and so a daughter of Sir Edward Courtenay of Sheviock (c.1332-c.1370), the 3rd son of the 2nd Earl of Devon. His wife Emmeline Dauney, a Cornish heiress, was born in 1327, and so age thirty when her elder son the future 3rd earl of Devon was born. There is plenty of time earlier in the decade for a daughter (named for Sir Edward's illustrious mother the countess of Devon?) to have been born, even as early as 1348-49. <br /><br />IIRC, both Sir Edward Courtenay and Sir Theobald Grenville served in the retinue of Edward the Black Prince, who of course was their feudal overlord as Duke of Cornwall. The two Cornish knights arranging a marriage for their children would not be unexpected. This will only ever be a hypothesis, as no evidence now survives to definitively determine the parentage of Margaret (Courtenay) Grenville."]<br /><br />Perhaps the entry for Margerat Courtenay found in the Grenville pedigree for the 1620 Visitation of Cornwall was meant to say Sist' instead of Da.!<br /><br />So instead of:<br /><br />"Sr. Theobald Grenvile Kt. temp Ric. II. = Margaret, Da. of Hugh Courtney" <br /><br />We would have:<br /><br />"Sr. Theobald Grenvile Kt. temp Ric. II. = Margaret, Sist' of Hugh Courtney" <br /><br />Seems like a logical conclusion given that in the same pedigree it states:<br /><br />"Thos. Grenvile fil. et haeres = Elizab. Sist' to Sr Theobald de Gorges Kt." <br /><br />When we know from a chronological assessment that, Elizabeth Gorges, was the daughter of Sir Theobald Gorges, K.B.<br /><br />These minor common errors in this particular pedigree have been commented on for centuries by different scholars in the genealogical and historical communities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com